Euro 2020: What do the Germans really think of England?
June 27, 2021
The morning after Germany's dramatic 2-2 tie with Hungary set up a round of 16 meeting with England at Wembley, the headline of the Daily Mail said it all: "Oh no, not the Germans again!"
English football has a complex when it comes to Germany, largely a result of successive traumas suffered at German hands — twice in semifinals, twice on penalties.
In fact, since beating West Germany 4-2 in the 1966 World Cup final, England have lost every knockout tie between the two nations since, most recently when Joachim Löw's young side hammered England 4-1 at the 2010 World Cup.
For English football fans, there is no bigger rival than Germany. But is the feeling mutual? DW asked three prominent German football journalists what they think of the "rivalry" with England.
DW: With four World Cup stars on their badge, do the Germans even take England seriously at all?
Christoph Biermann (11 Freunde): Germany tends to have rivalries with those teams which are in the same weight category: Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, France … but we've not lost a decisive tournament game against England since 1966. OK, there was the 5-1 defeat in Munich in 2001, but it didn't mean anything in the end. Furthermore, there are local rivalries against our neighbors in the Netherlands and Austria which are a bit more emotional.
On the other hand, there are some great stories involving England that have built up over the years, starting with Geoff Hurst's goal in 1966 [which didn't cross the line — Editor's note] and then the reverse happening in 2010 [when Frank Lampard's shot did but didn't count].
Germany hasn't suffered from the same trauma against England, although that could change on Tuesday…
Hendrik Buchheister (Der Spiegel): It's a rivalry which is defined by historic games: 1966 obviously, but that was closely followed by 1970 [a 3-2 Germany win in the quarterfinal] and then the penalty shootouts in 1990 [World Cup semifinal] and 1996 [Euro semifinal].
And of course, Lampard in 2010. They were all particularly dramatic games — and tragic, from England's point of view.
Stephan Uersfeld (NTV): There are iconic matches but I don't really think it's a rivalry. Germany's biggest rivals are the Netherlands, our next-door neighbors against whom we've had some historic matches, especially 1974 [Germany's 2-1 triumph in the World Cup final — Editor's note] and 1988 [Netherlands' 2-1 win against Germany in the European Championship semifinal].
Even if England aren't considered big footballing rivals, games at Wembley do seem to enjoy a certain mysticism for German fans.
Biermann: Absolutely, Wembley is a mythical place. There are only a handful of such iconic national stadiums in the world: the Maracana in Rio de Janeiro, for example, or perhaps Hampden Park in Glasgow. I think you could tell by the reactions of the German players after the Hungary game: England at Wembley in a proper tournament game, it doesn't get much better than that.
Buchheister: For many German fans, Wembley is comparable with Camp Nou, the Bernabeu or Anfield — pure romanticism in the motherland of football. The 2013 Champions League final at Wembley [in which Bayern Munich beat Borussia Dortmund 2-1 — Editor's note] allowed German football to present itself on the biggest stage at the home of football and led to more English fans becoming interested in German football.
Uersfeld: And of course, it was a German, Dietmar Hamann, who scored the last ever goal at the old Wembley. But whenever people think of Germany vs. England, they still think of 1966 and "das Wembley-Tor" …
"The Wembley Goal," or Geoff Hurst's second, England's third, which didn't actually cross the line. No VAR back then! Germany's last tournament meeting with England at Wembley was in the Euro 1996 semifinal. How highly does that rank in German football history?
Biermann: The biggest memory of Euro '96 isn't the penalty shootout against England, but rather Oliver Bierhoff's golden goal in the final. England was just one game en route to the title. Of course, it was special because it was against the hosts and it went to penalties and it was obviously traumatic for England, but it wasn't the climax for Germany.
The same applies to [the semifinal at] Italia '90. In Germany, we tend to remember Frank Rijkaard spitting at Rudi Völler, or Lothar Matthäus scoring twice against Yugoslavia or Guido Buchwald man-marking Diego Maradona in the final. England are a bit further down the list.
Buchheister: I think the Euro '96 triumph remains in the memory because it embodied togetherness, team spirit, these classic German traits. Germany weren't the best team but still won at Wembley, at the home of football, having knocked out England.
In England, Euro '96 is mostly associated with Gareth Southgate's missed penalty — and now he's the head coach. How is Southgate thought of in Germany?
Uersfeld: Southgate is known as the player Andreas Möller was mimicking when he celebrated with his hands on his hips …
Buchheister: Southgate is a coach for whom solidity and safety are important, he doesn't take risks. For him, it's not necessarily about entertaining the fans but about progressing through the tournament, following the example of France, Portugal or indeed Germany.
But that's not easy when you have a team with so much attacking talent: [Marcus] Rashford, [Harry] Kane, [Raheem] Sterling, [Jadon] Sancho, [Phil] Foden, [Jack] Grealish, [Bukayo] Saka … the fans want them all to play, but that's not Southgate's football.
Biermann: In Germany, people can see that England are on the right path. England are considered dangerous again, and that hasn't always been the case.
Buchheister: Although I'm not sure if playing at Wembley is really much of an advantage for England. The fans get nervous very quickly.
That's because they've endured so much trauma and despair since 1966. But what do the Germans think of the English fans these days? English fan culture seems to have had a considerable influence in Germany.
Biermann: It depends on the generation. Older fans remember watching English football on TV and being fascinated by the chants and the songs — and the old English hooligans who would follow their teams abroad. Add to that the great pop music which came from England. The country was a fascinating place. However, younger German fans are more influenced by the ultra culture of Italy and South America.
Buchheister: There is a certain mythology about English fan culture, but it's more nuanced these days. Names like Anfield and Wembley still sound romantic to German ears but many also see that things aren't necessarily going in the right direction in England, with expensive tickets, gentrification and little in the way of an active fan culture.
Uersfeld: German fans who travel to England are often impressed by how the support is directly related to the game, ebbing and flowing with the play. They also admire how English fans create chants for individual players. The fan culture is a bit more humorous than in Germany.
You must be referring to Gareth Southgate's chant to the tune of Atomic Kitten's 2000 single "Whole Again." But unfortunately, England fans also continue to sing less amusing songs. What do Germans think when they hear songs about World War II?
Uersfeld: "Ten German bombers in the air …?" [Laughs] Whatever, it's up to them. We have our idiots, too. Although if I heard something like that from German fans, I'd find that quite disturbing. We know that not all English fans are obsessed with the war but, from the outside, you can only laugh in bewilderment that it's still such a big topic.
Biermann: Personally, I've never taken it particularly seriously. It's a weird part of folklore. I wouldn't like to hear German fans singing anything like that though.
Buchheister: I think, as a German, you just laugh about the fact that the English are still so focused on World War II and the British Empire and English exceptionalism. I think Brexit made it quite clear how some of the English see themselves. But we don't take the chants too seriously, it's not really an attack on us. I still don't think they should do it, though.
Finally, why is Jadon Sancho not playing?
Biermann: I think it's astonishing that he's hardly played a role. I have no explanation. I can only trust that Southgate as a coach has his reasons.
Uersfeld: It's bewildering. We've all seen how Sancho has performed in the Bundesliga, how he can create those situations by cutting in from the wing. Fair enough, Bukayo Saka played well against the Czech Republic but Sancho can play that role better than anyone.
Maybe it's a transfer ploy to keep his price down.
Christoph Biermann is the chief football reporter at German magazine 11Freunde. Hendrik Buchheister is a freelance journalist reporting for Der Spiegel from Manchester. Stephan Uersfeld is a former German football correspondent at ESPN, now with NTV.
The interview was conducted by DW's Matt Ford.