Megha Khanna: People love curry in this country, you know. So like if you combine curry and beer, it's like a match made in heaven.
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Rachel Stewart: Curry and beer is actually what I would choose if I had one last meal on Earth. On that note, hello and welcome to a slightly different installment of Don't Drink the Milk. But first up, a little request from us – as we're starting to work on Season 2, we've put together a very short survey about our show. We'd really love to hear from you, so if you can spare just a few minutes, please head to dw.com/dontdrinkthemilk and click on the survey link. We might even make your idea into an episode in Season 2! So, we're officially on a season break right now, but we couldn't abandon you completely. So we're going to revisit some of our topics from Season 1 to bring you the untold stories, the travel tales, the extra gossip and the tangents we couldn't quite squeeze into the episodes. I'm your host, Rachel Stewart, and I'm joined in the studio by our producer Sam Baker.
Sam Baker: Hello there.
Rachel: One episode I think we both really loved working on last season was the one about IPA – India Pale Ale – so the beer. It was about how it got its name and all the surprising, complex stories and colonial hangovers hidden in that pint glass. So I won't give any more spoilers, in case somebody hasn't actually listened to the episode yet. But Sam, we crammed a lot into that episode, so what's left to tell of the story?
Sam: Well, there was one thing that didn't quite fit into the episode. We just ran out of time. So it's essentially the story of the people who lived under British imperial rule and their descendants who then moved to the UK, specifically folks from South Asia – people known as "desis".
David Jesudason: Desi means, it's Sanskrit for the homeland and it means people who are originally from India. So the idea is you're a desi as soon as you leave India. I mean, I'll be called a desi. So, anyone who's Indian origin, you'd say 'Ah, they're desi.' It's also like things that mean 'homestyle', so you'll see curries cooked desi-style, that kind of thing. It's the idea of preserving a culture when you leave it.
Rachel: That's David Jesudason, one of the beer writers you heard from in our IPA episode. But in addition to having the pretty cool job of writing about beers, David has spent quite a lot of time looking into how desi culture influenced British pub culture. He traveled all around the UK, working on his book called Desi Pubs: A Guide to British-Indian Pubs, Food & Culture.
Sam: This is my kind of travel book. It starts with a little bit of history, a little bit of culture and then it's just a long list of pubs you can visit all over the UK with these tidbits about why each one is special.
Rachel: And one of those was actually the pub we recorded in for our IPA episode. Here's landlady Megha Khanna –
Megha Khanna: We are at the Gladstone Arms Pub, which is based near Borough Station.
Rachel: Okay, so we're here in London in a super cozy pub, but it looks a little bit different to what some people might imagine when they go into a traditional British pub. Can you tell us a little bit about the identity of this place?
Megha: So the pub has been around since the 1800s. It's fondly known to be the Glad. My brother and I took over the pub in April of 2017. Back then it was a very traditional British boozer, a bit rundown, a bit, um, rigid, as you might say. And we just wanted to give it a new lease of life. So when we took over, we decided to change it up a little bit and give it some character or a different kind of character. So on the ground floor, it's a bit more of sort of like a modern British vibe with a little bit of like elements that showcase that we're from India. So you've got like the Ganesh tapestry and you've got these flowers around, which are traditional. And then upstairs is a bit different, a bit more like I would say… a bit more sort of British influence up there.
Rachel: So what do you want people to experience when they come in here?
Megha: Well, you know, we try to be as welcoming as possible. And obviously, we have an Indian background. So we wanted to infuse– sort of blend the Indian and English together and do this Anglo-Indian concept. That's what the food that we do– we've got like the pies and the curries and Anglo-Indian Sunday roast, which people love and, you know, just welcome anyone from any different part of the world.
Sounds of food being delivered
Rachel: Obviously we had to try the food. I went for the paneer pie. I love British-style savory pies. And I also love paneer curry, so this really was a dream. And, luckily for me, it wasn't too spicy! And David and Sam went for…
Sounds of eating food
David: Chicken tikka masala pie.
Rachel: Classic.
Sam: The Kid Goat Kimah Pie. It was very good.
Rachel: So this is like fusion cuisine in some way? How would you describe it?
David: So the pub before had a tradition of serving pies before Meg and Gaurav took it over and they continued the tradition by just using sort of an Indian twist on it. So we've just had pies with lovely, you know, deep sauces inside, but with chips, that kind of thing.
Sam: That's British 'chips', so fries.
Rachel: Yeah, the correct kind of chips.
David: So desi pubs are pubs that are run by people of Indian origin. But also they've stamped their culture on the place and we've seen it through the food that we just ate. But also they have events like Bangor events, Diwali events, that kind of thing. And they historically came about because of the color bar. People coming to this country and not being welcome in pubs or having to endure segregated pubs.
Rachel: The color bar in the UK was racial segregation in the form of white Brits refusing to serve people of color or let them enter their businesses. In some pubs, white landlords would force desis and other people of color to drink in a room separate from the white customers. In response to this and in order to have a space to drink a pint and get together after a long day of work, desis started opening their own pubs. This was the birth of the desi pub.
David: So 90% of them are run by Sikhs from the Punjab region. They came here originally in the 1940s/1950s to work in car industries, factories, that kind of thing. They're often in areas which are very humble and normal, I would say. I remember this pub in North London, it had blacked-out windows and I didn't know what I was going to, and I opened it and it was like, sort of like when the Wizard of Oz went into color – there was like such a great community feel. I was expecting it to be empty and people look at me, but there was women at the bar drinking, just two women by themselves, not getting hassled. There were families celebrating an elder relative having a birthday and there were people watching the football as well. And so they're really multi-purpose venues, but really community orientated.
Rachel: And desi pubs aren't just for people of Indian or South Asian descent, they've become really multicultural spaces. Places that belong to the whole community.
David: Most people now don't really think of them as brown spaces or white spaces, they're very mixed. Actually what this is, is it's not just a story of Asianness. It's a story of integration. And how people who live in these areas, uh white people, call these desi pubs as their own. And so it's this kind of potted history of this country as seen through a pub. But it's also the success of multiculturalism, which is not something we hear a lot of. But this is a case of – you'll have people who might have had racist views growing up and when they went to the pub, they saw that their landlord had changed and they stuck with it and they had their lives completely enriched.
Megha: Yeah, I would say it's definitely a big cultural mix. In fact, when we first opened the pub in 2017, we noticed that there was actually hardly any Indians who would come here. It was more like British people. But then like over time, as people got to know the landlords and the food offering, we're now starting to get more Indians coming in. We also do Diwali parties. For some people, this is their second home, and for British people like the pub is not meant to just be a drinking establishment. It's meant to be an extension of your living room. It's where you come and you socialize, meet people, create that sort of sense of community. And that's what we're trying to do over here.
Rachel: I love the idea of the desi pub. I'd never heard of it before, but it just makes total sense because the Indian culture, British culture, has been fused so much.
Sam: Yeah, I mean, anytime I've met a Brit outside of the UK and asked them what they missed about home, the first thing they've said is curry.
Rachel: Oh, I absolutely agree. That's what I always do. When I get home, the first thing I do is meet up with friends to go for a curry in my favorite curry house.
Sam: Okay, so speaking of curries and food in general, we wanted to do a little bit of a quickfire round on these mini-episodes and talk about some of our favorite little takeaways from our travels and things that might help you out on your next trip to the Big Smoke. So we've got five quick questions. Are you ready, Rachel?
Rachel: Let's do it.
Sam: Okay, so first one: Best meal you had or a new food that you tried?
Rachel: Well, the food we had at the Glad was pretty good.
Sam: It was very tasty.
Rachel: And you said you wanted to go back for the special Sunday roast that they do.
Sam: Exactly. I would really like– I was dying for a Sunday roast on our trip and I missed Sunday.
Rachel: So sad. And we missed the pub quiz. So we've got to go back for both of those.
Sam: Absolutely. Okay, which takes us to our next question, which is: A place that we didn't get to see, but we would like to go back for. Now, I've actually got one of these that was from David's book, and it's another desi pub, but it is in West Bromwich… Am I saying that right?
Rachel: West Bromwich. Silent W.
Sam: Of course.
Rachel: Yeah, so that is in the West Midlands, so the west of England, not too far from the Welsh border, near Birmingham.
Sam: Right. So this pub is called The Red Lion, and it has these stained glass windows in it that commemorate the struggles of Indians when they moved to the UK, started working in foundries, faced racial segregation. It kind of goes through these different stories. And it even also features a stained glass window about a visit from Malcolm X to this area shortly before he was assassinated, showing solidarity with the workers here in their fight for racial equality.
Rachel: Okay, we're definitely going back.
Sam: Okay, number three: A hidden treasure or a surprise find from our trip?
Rachel: I mean, we've both spent a lot of time in London before, but I did learn something completely new when we were with Pete in St. Pancras. So one of London's biggest, main central stations. Loads of people will have been through that before. You take it if you want to go across to Europe on the Eurostar. I've been there, I don't know how many times, but I had no idea that these sweeping arches were literally there to store beer.
Sam: Yeah, it was actually one of the first places I went when I moved to London, and it's a beautiful old train station, and there's a hotel above it and stuff, but yeah, all for beer.
Rachel: All for beer! Which makes me like it even more.
Sam: Okay, number four: A travel tip or packing tip?
Rachel: There was one thing that David said, which again, I learned completely new. He was telling us what it means if you see on the label for an IPA, 'session IPA'. I had no idea, but apparently, this is because it's sessionable, so you can have a session and drink lots of it because it's not too strong.
Sam: Yeah, which I have to say, I feel like even 'session' is a bit of a British term. Like when I moved there and people would be like, 'having a sesh'.
Rachel: Oh, yes. Let's have a sesh tonight. So, if you go to the UK and you're going to have a sesh, maybe have a sessionable IPA and you won't get too out of control.
Sam: All right, good tip. And last one – now this is a bit funny to do with the UK, but we wanted to have the basic words and phrases you might want when traveling. So, 'hello', 'goodbye', 'where's the bathroom?', that sort of thing. So, I think this is going to have to be, like, British English/Pub English edition. So I'll go through them quickly and you just fire them back at me.
Rachel: Okay.
Sam: Okay, so: 'Hello.'
Rachel: I think the most British thing to say would be 'alright', which is not a question asking are you alright? It literally is just a greeting.
Sam: Okay. 'Thank you.'
Rachel: 'Ta'. Ta very much.
Sam: Just T-A?
Rachel: Just T-A.
Sam: Alright, 'Where's the bathroom?'
Rachel: 'Where's the loo?' obviously.
Sam: That, I feel like Americans probably know. I was always a little bit confused when people would ask for the toilet because I feel like that's a little offensive to Americans.
Rachel: Oh, yeah. But if you ask for the bathroom, people are gonna send you upstairs to the hotel or something, or be like…
Sam: 'There's no bath here!' Alright. And then, to see us out, 'goodbye'.
Rachel: Uh, two very British options would be cheerio or toodles.
Sam: Do people actually say cheerio?
Rachel: Yeah. Oh, definitely. My dad says cheerio.
Sam: Really?
Rachel: Yeah.
Sam: All right, well then, cheerio!
Rachel: Toodles!
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Rachel: One more thing before you go – if you're looking for another podcast with some great European insights, do check out ‘The Europeans’. Europe is a complicated place. Hundreds of languages, dozens of countries and fast-changing politics. It can be pretty hard to keep up! ‘The Europeans’ is an award-winning, weekly podcast that keeps you up-to-date on the continent’s biggest stories – including some you might have missed. With the help of fascinating guests from across Europe, the show explains complex issues from elections to the Eurovision Song Contest, from Portugal to Georgia and everything in between. Find and subscribe to ‘The Europeans’ – wherever you’re listening to this.