Lech Walesa

There was strong opposition to Poland's communist regime at the Lenin Shipyard in Gdansk. In 1980, it was where electrician Lech Walesa was one of the founders of the Solidarity (Solidarnosc) trade union. Before that, he had been a member of an illegal strike committee. Although Solidarity was banned when martial law was imposed in 1981, it was ultimately invited to the Round Table Talks in early 1989 that led to the end of communist rule in Poland.

The events in Poland had a big influence on protests in East Germany, which eventually led to the fall of the Berlin Wall. DW spoke to Nobel Peace Prize laureate and former Polish President Lech Walesa about the events 25 years ago and the parallels to current developments in Ukraine.

DW: The fall of the Wall came as a surprise to politicians around the world. Were you surprised, too?

Lech Walesa: The Wall fell when German Chancellor Helmut Kohl and his Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher were on their first official visit to Poland. I remember this meeting quite well. We were sitting at a table and drinking tea. We engaged in polite small talk about all kinds of things for a few minutes.

I ended up interrupting the chitchat by asking Hans-Dietrich Genscher, "What will you do if the Wall falls?"

The minister sat there for a moment and didn't say a word. He was obviously surprised by my question. He took a breath and said that it was highly improbable that would happen during his lifetime.

On the next day, the delegation had to cut their visit short because they received a message that the Wall had come down. The events back then were able to take the biggest politicians of the time by surprise.

In the 1980s, I held many discussions with members of royal families and heads of states. No one believed we would manage to create this process of change in the peaceful manner that we did. What is important is that the entire process developed step by step and that's why it was successful.

And it all began at the Gdansk Shipyard in 1980, when the whole world learned of Solidarity. After years of confrontation, the next big breakthrough happened in 1989 - the Round Table Talks, the half-free elections and the first non-communist government in the communist Eastern Bloc. We got the ball rolling to bring about change in all of Eastern and Central Europe. The result of this was the fall of the Wall.

Did East Germans benefit from your endeavors in Poland to stand up to the communist regime?

A few weeks ago, I had the honor of receiving representatives of the former East German opposition at my office in Gdansk. During the meeting, they said how they envied us for being able to be part of such a strong movement as Solidarity.

We managed, for a fleeting moment, to rise up and show Poland and the world what kind of a force we are when we are together as Solidarity. Our German friends weren't as lucky as we were - they were never able to form a legitimate public movement.

They tried to adapt our experience to their circumstances - even back then, when the movement was new. They made contact with the Workers' Defense Committee, but they could not create the kind of momentum that we had.

Maybe it was for the better. Because the anti-communist resistance was stronger in Gdansk than else in Europe, we were able to avoid a direct confrontation with the Soviet Union.

Today we know that there were a number of factors that led to our freedom: the events at the Cegielski factory (a 1956 worker uprising in Poznan - ed.), the Prague Spring, the (1968) Polish student strike, the 1980 strike and the founding of Solidarity, the Round Table, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the collapse of the Soviet Union. All of these events have to be seen as consecutive links in the chain of freedom.

Looking back to the fall of the Wall, is there anything you wish would have done differently?

From today's perspective, I know I could have done things differently, maybe with a little more care. But generally speaking, I am happy with what I did. I'm not going to judge myself - I'll let others do that. I'll leave that up to historians.

Today, we are criticized for our decisions made during the democratic change by those who were spectators back then. Those are the ones who shout the loudest. But we know, of course, only those who do nothing make no mistakes.

My friends and I are accused of not settling scores with the communists - some are angry that we didn't put them on trial.

But that wasn't my idea of democratic change. I wanted to create this new order on the basis of understanding and not on the basis of war. And I wanted to leave it up to democracy and the courts to settle the score.

I will always defend this approach. Criminals have to be put on the stand, but I didn't want a witch hunt. Look what happened in Romania - they settled the scores there and what happened? The situation didn't ease up until Emil Constantinescu became president. Look at how many years Romania lost and how much time they'll need to catch up economically with other countries in the region.

Reunified Germany is today Europe's strongest economy. What do you expect from Germany economically and politically?

I have been saying for years that today's politics lacks leadership. I would expect the USA to position itself at the top of global politics for the Western world and Germany to do the same for a united Europe.

I support what former Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski said a few years ago. He said he didn't fear German power in Europe, but German inactivity.

This sentence reflects a trend that has been about for many years. We need to rethink - to not think about national states and interests, but about the state of Europe.

When the Lech Walesa Prize was awarded to the Euromaidan, you said that the world should show solidarity with Ukraine and that we should stand up for freedom again. Do you see parallels between the situation in the Eastern bloc countries 25 years ago and the current one in Ukraine?

Yes and no. On the one hand, I see the same passion that we had when we stood up to the communist powers. On the other, I see that Ukrainians are not as resolute as we were in the 1980s. We didn't allow it to come to war back then. And regardless of what people are saying, there is a war going on there.

I call for solidarity and help for the Ukrainian people, so that they can organize themselves. And I want Ukrainians to find agreement over their top priorities. The momentum during and after the Orange Revolution was squandered.

Nonetheless, we cannot leave Ukraine alone. It is in our economic interest and it is also a question of security.

What should the EU do regarding the Ukraine crisis?

This is a very difficult situation. When it comes to sanctions, we have to make sure they are balanced - just enough so that they can be felt in Russia, but not that we let Russian countermeasures hurt Europe's - and Poland's - economy too much.

We are suffering most under all this but we cannot turn a blind eye to Russian politics in Ukraine. During the awards ceremony for the Euromaidan representatives, I said: "We must not look away!"

Should Poland take the lead?

Definitely. Today, we are the main advocate of Ukrainian interests in Europe. We cannot deny this obligation. If we, as Ukraine's closest neighbor, do nothing, then maybe these "little green men" will take over in eastern Ukraine. But in a month or two, they will be knocking on our door. And what then?

We cannot lie to ourselves. These are not just rebels, stateless people, who are fighting for a piece of land for themselves. We cannot simply accept it because it would put into question the very foundation of Europe and the world. Of course, we have to be very careful and there needs to be responsibility and a willingness to engage in dialogue on both sides.

You are one of the biggest freedom fighters of the 20th century. What consequences do you think the new conflicts in Ukraine and the disputes with Russia mean for Europe?

I was raised in an era of division, an era of blocs and borders. Today, we live in an era of intellect, of information and globalization. What makes Europe strong is its partnership and respect. What Russia is doing right now does not fit into this era.

It looked as though the years of open war were over in Europe - it seemed as though we would never see tanks rolling into countries in Europe any more. No one would have guessed that a passenger plane could be shot down from the sky above European land. Even a year ago, all of this seemed impossible to everyone.

But this is what is happening in Europe now. When I see what is happening in the east, I feel deeply sad. Ukraine had an opportunity, but it was squandered. Now the situation is more volatile than 25 or 10 years ago.

An election will not be enough to win over there. Ukrainians need to take responsibility for themselves, for their country and for the development of Europe. We should help them, but in the end, they have to make the decisions and take action. That is why their unity and our solidarity with them are so important today.

Lech Walesa was born in Popowo in 1943. He is the founder of Solidarity, the first independent trade union in a communist country. He played a key role in Poland's transformation to democracy and was elected president in 1990, serving a five-year term. In 1983, he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.