Egypt and Tunisia

Kerstin Müller is a member of the German parliament and the foreign policy spokeswoman of the Green party. This interview was conducted by Ute Schaeffer, editor-in-chief of Deutsche Welle.

Deutsche Welle: The revolutions across the Arab World began nearly a year ago. When you look back at the events in the region - particularly in Tunisia and Egypt - how democratic are these countries now, one year on?

Kerstin Müller: I think Tunisia, really, has every chance of achieving the transformation to democracy. They have, above all, made a very clean break from the old regime. The old guard is not allowed to run for office; trials are in progress for former members of the regime; corruption is being rooted out; and a very transparent, open process has been established: elections are being prepared; and constitutional assemblies are being organized to draw up a new constitution, which will be the basis for electing a parliament. In other words, society is being given an entirely new foundation.

In Egypt, however, I see things differently. There is a very nontransparent process of elections and changes, all of it channeled by the Supreme Military Council. There have been rudimentary changes to the constitution, but nothing fundamental - at least not yet. And the big question is, whether, and when, the transition to democracy will happen.

I think at the moment we are witnessing a really rough-and-tumble fight between the old guard and the military on the one side and the forces of modernization on the other - and it is not at all clear, who is going to win this struggle. The military has a firm grip on the reins of power and has re-installed all the instruments of the old regime.

In Egypt's case, do you think there is a danger of a sort of hybrid system with no real democracy?

I highly doubt whether the military council is prepared to organize a transition. That would mean giving up its political and economic power. I think the military council will give up only so much power, or organize so much democracy, as not to undermine its own power.

This is evident in the transition process, which was supposed to last six months, but now will continue until the end of 2013. Whether or not it will really be over by then is anybody's guess.

When elections really take place is open and the military council is holding on to the constitutional assembly to name 80 of the 100 members itself. If there is no constitution in six months, then it wants to take over the entire process.

In my view, there is a rough-and-tumble fight going on, and it is the task of the European Union, the Europeans, the West, to clearly say and demand that the military council step down and hand over the economic and political powers to a legitimate, political government.

Looking at our tasks and foreign policy in the EU and Germany, are you satisfied with the way we have supported Egypt and Tunisia in building a civil society, democratic institutions and political parties?

What the European Union has done well, certainly, is to set up programs focusing on civil society and supporting the processes in Tunisia and Egypt, although one has to say that the Egyptians have not really taken advantage of this, while the Tunisians have welcomed it with open arms.

What hasn't been done so far is undertaking a critical review, a fundamental, critical review of existing European policy. We have been conducting a very nasty policy of double standards. We pampered the Mubaraks and Ben Alis, collaborated with them on issues, like refugee controls and anti-terrorism efforts, but we've essentially closed our eyes to issues, like human rights and democracy.

We have a credibility deficit. We need to win back our credibility, and we can only do that by actually supporting the democracy movement and not by banking on questionable stability from a military council. We need to open our markets to give their economies a chance, and we need to end our refugee control policies and switch to a more sensible migration policy with these countries.

...and we can only be credible, if we are heard. But that can only happen, if we make a concerted effort to speak with one voice. Do you have the impression that we have finally let go of national politics in favor of common political goals which we jointly act on as Europeans?

No. There are still the national policies, and especially, there is a race between the French, the Germans, the British and the Americans to be the first with a foot in the door. There is little common policy here and more national interest.

I think we will not reach our goals when as many small national programs as possible are set up alongside European Union ones. Instead, I think it would be better, for coherency's sake, to do everything possible so that Europe can speak with one voice.

This is what has been decided at the EU level: Programs, for example, to promote civil society and women's rights based on our principles of our values. This is where the EU should be supported, instead of having every country stewing in its own juices.

Interview: Ute Schaeffer / gb
Editor: Rob Mudge